• Re: Happy pride month! (to those who cel

    From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to boraxman on Thu Jun 11 09:06:19 2026
    On Friday, June 12th boraxman was heard saying...
    I've been explicitely told that by other managers who were in the process of hiring. They were literally told that they are strongly, strongly recommended to hire based on "diversity" over merit.

    Oh I have zero doubt that it *has* happened, of course it has. But it's by far not what DEI is designed or intended for, nor how it plays out most of the time -- Most of the time, it works as intended, which is great.

    I've had my superior tell me not to hire a woman before, too, because... she was a woman. But I happen to have a pair and told them where to go.

    So there you go, we both have a ancedotal occurance!


    boraxman around Friday, June 12th...
    And I'm not incompetent, I manage a team now.

    So does my 16 y/o. lol, but I'll take your word for it.


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  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to boraxman on Thu Jun 11 09:07:39 2026
    Twas Friday, June 12th when boraxman said...
    I've been told TO MY FACE by people who hire that there is a 'reverse racism' imposed by HR. there are people who expose this form within companies. It is literaly WRITTEN COMPANY POLICY, but if you mention it, you're treated as if you are imagining it, and that you are the bad guy.

    Somehow you don't grasp that this is just an ancdeotal incident, though. Statisticlly, this is not the case at all.

    Sounds like the company you work for is full of a lot of morons that need sued into oblivion.


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  • From Adept@21:2/108 to NuSkooler on Fri Jun 12 09:10:41 2026
    And I'm not incompetent, I manage a team now.

    So does my 16 y/o. lol, but I'll take your word for it.

    I was thinking that was a tagline, as it _does_ seem like a decent one-liner.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to NuSkooler on Fri Jun 12 22:40:28 2026
    Oh I have zero doubt that it *has* happened, of course it has. But it's
    by far not what DEI is designed or intended for, nor how it plays out
    most of the time -- Most of the time, it works as intended, which is great.

    I've had my superior tell me not to hire a woman before, too, because... she was a woman. But I happen to have a pair and told them where to go.

    So there you go, we both have a ancedotal occurance!


    So does my 16 y/o. lol, but I'll take your word for it.


    Hehe, actually the team I manage is a compliance team for the pharma industry...

    The thing with DEI, is that intent doesn't matter so much as outcome. The issue is that it creates an incentive structure which necessitates a racial/sexual bias to remain complaint.

    If you are going to be *judged* by your organisation not being "representative" according to some somewhat arbitrary criteria, or incorrect assumptions, then in order to avoid criticism, or not meeting a target, you'll need to ensure hiring and promotion brings you in line with expectation.

    This is what people miss. Once you make something a "metric", then the system is gamed to make the metric appear good "on paper", regardless of how. Like how the government will just import people to make GDP look good, despite the fact that cost of living is going up, etc.

    Its not so much the idea of "not discriminating" which is the problem, is the creation of metrics, which are directly correlated to the race/ethnicity/gender/sexuality of your staff.

    Actually, one way companies increase their female management is to just create bogus "manager" jobs, i.e, rename someone working on their own as a "manager", and then this increases the female manager metric.

    This should have been the obvious outcome from the start.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to NuSkooler on Fri Jun 12 22:43:22 2026

    Somehow you don't grasp that this is just an ancdeotal incident, though. Statisticlly, this is not the case at all.


    If multiple people are reporting the same thing, independently, in different places, that is, seeing the same issue come up and correlate, then "anectode" becomes "Evidence".

    Sounds like the company you work for is full of a lot of morons that
    need sued into oblivion.


    People are raising lawsuits against it but for individuals losing your job to MAYBE win is not worth it. This is why the solution is to simply outlaw it. Is is a social/political problem and requires a political solution.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to boraxman on Fri Jun 12 10:05:18 2026
    boraxman around Saturday, June 13th...
    The issue is that it creates an incentive structure which necessitates a racial/sexual bias to remain complaint.

    I agree fully with you here that it *can* create a incentive structure - but if it has, the company has implemented it wrong.

    The same strucutre you cite already exists *without* DEI, but it's the polar opposite, resulting in racism, misogyny, etc. Hell, half the people here make it VERY clear they would not hire someone they deem as LGBTQ+. DEI combats that.

    Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it better than the alternative (ie: nothing)? Hell yes. Instead of being "anti-DEI", be "anti-abuse". ALL of our systems are abused in some way or another -- that's the game. There is always persons out there ready to exploit/abuse/whatever any system in place. The key is to iterate and revise, not destroy.


    On Saturday, June 13th boraxman said...
    Actually, one way companies increase their female management is to just create bogus "manager" jobs, i.e, rename someone working on their own as a "manager", and then this increases the female manager metric.

    I've seen this play out in a million ways over my career, but replace "female" with whatever you like. Bad people game the system to make themselves look good. Nothing new. (Bad) Managers do this with or without DEI.


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  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to boraxman on Fri Jun 12 10:08:44 2026
    Twas Saturday, June 13th when boraxman said...
    If multiple people are reporting the same thing, independently, in different places, that is, seeing the same issue come up and correlate, then "anectode" becomes "Evidence".

    That's still ancedotal, sir. Start measuring the claims from "both directions" and now you can start to form some evidence.

    ...and lucky us, that's exactly what oversight & regulation does. And we DO have independent groups (plural, important here) that study this stuff, and the outcomes have been overly positive, with outlier bad effects.


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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to NuSkooler on Sat Jun 13 22:17:00 2026
    I agree fully with you here that it *can* create a incentive structure - but if it has, the company has implemented it wrong.

    The same strucutre you cite already exists *without* DEI, but it's the polar opposite, resulting in racism, misogyny, etc. Hell, half the
    people here make it VERY clear they would not hire someone they deem as LGBTQ+. DEI combats that.

    Is it perfect? Hell no. Is it better than the alternative (ie: nothing)? Hell yes. Instead of being "anti-DEI", be "anti-abuse". ALL of our
    systems are abused in some way or another -- that's the game. There is always persons out there ready to exploit/abuse/whatever any system in place. The key is to iterate and revise, not destroy.

    On Saturday, June 13th boraxman said...
    Actually, one way companies increase their female management is to jus
    create bogus "manager" jobs, i.e, rename someone working on their own
    a "manager", and then this increases the female manager metric.

    I've seen this play out in a million ways over my career, but replace "female" with whatever you like. Bad people game the system to make themselves look good. Nothing new. (Bad) Managers do this with or
    without DEI.


    There is no going back. Diverse societies become societies driven by identity politics.

    The "merit driven" society is over, we are going to become and more and more defined by what group we identify by.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to boraxman on Sat Jun 13 11:17:37 2026
    If multiple people are reporting the same thing, independently, in different places, that is, seeing the same issue come up and correlate, then "anectode" becomes "Evidence".

    https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/12/27/plural/

    I'm just entertained that you effectively just said that the plural of anecdote is data, and the common saying is that the plural of anecdote is _not_ data.

    Though multiple anecdotes are generally a good reason to do research.

    Anyway, not responding to the rest of the political discussion, in the hopes of being slightly better on my own political responses.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From NuSkooler@21:1/121 to boraxman on Sat Jun 13 11:44:03 2026
    On Sunday, June 14th boraxman said...
    The "merit driven" society is over, we are going to become and more and more defined by what group we identify by.

    The more you deversify, the less this is true. "Melting pots" have always shown this to be the case while nationalism and the like produces said groups.


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  • From Dmxrob@21:4/142 to Exodus on Wed Jun 17 03:08:02 2026
    BY: Exodus (21:1/144)
    * Origin: This origin line was automagically created for (21:4/142.0)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Dmxrob on Wed Jun 17 09:23:53 2026
    Happy Pride!

    And please stop with the politics talk. I was hoping we were done with it.

    So many other nice conversations going on, without any mention of politicians.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to NuSkooler on Wed Jun 17 05:30:11 2026
    Re: Re: Happy pride month! (to those who cel
    By: NuSkooler to boraxman on Sat Jun 13 2026 11:44 am

    more defined by what group we identify by.

    The more you deversify, the less this is true. "Melting pots" have always shown this to be the case while nationalism and the like produces said groups.

    Nobody is diversifying anything that matters.

    The whole diversity theory goes that if you build teams from people with different cultural backgrounds you get teams which produce more flexible ideas.

    However you don't see HR picking up employees based on those concepts. They will happily pick 10 employees for the team who were raised in a given city, educated in the same facilities and following the same program, but they will call their group diverse because some employees have a different skin color despite the fact they are factually the same.

    The way real diversity looks like is more in the line of outsourcing work to external specialists which bring something your company does not have. Which is far from popular IRL.


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  • From Matthew Munson@21:4/108 to Adept on Thu Jun 18 21:00:16 2026
    And please stop with the politics talk. I was hoping we were done with it.

    So many other nice conversations going on, without any mention of politicians.
    Sadly we are in a polarized society.

    ***wcTaglines: Funny, only sensible people agree with me.
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  • From phigan@21:3/193 to Stanley_White on Tue Jun 30 15:40:06 2026
    discuss focing values on others, I feel forced to respond kindly to
    "Thank you
    for your service," to maintain societal norms when the truthful response would
    be "I didn't do it for you."

    I 100% understand and agree with this... but, you can just let them think whatever and say "You're welcome." and then just go about your day ;).
    Yeah, it's not instinctive or even what you WANT to do...


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